Grief, Loss and the Death of Dreams, Marilyn Heavilin
1/19/2005

[HOST_Carolann] I think we will get started now. Welcome everyone! Our guest for today is Marilyn Heavilin.
[HOST_Carolann] Although Marilyn Heavilin has her BA in Liberal Arts, she has her PhD in Grief earned the hard way - she has lived it - when their 17 year old son was killed by a drunk driver.
[HOST_Carolann] She will be talking about grief and loss and the death of dreams.
[HOST_Carolann] Marilyn is a gifted speaker and author of 5 books.
[HOST_Carolann] Welcome Marilyn and thank you for being here. I will turn our time over to you.
GUEST_Marilyn> Hello everyone. Thank you, Carolann
GUEST_Marilyn> Let me just share some of my story with you. My husband and I were married in 1958. Our son Matt was born in 1959. Our daughter Mellyn was born in 1961. Jimmy arrived in 1964. When Jimmy was 7 weeks old, he died of SIDS.
GUEST_Marilyn> We had subsequent children, identical twin boys, born on Christmas morning, 1965, Nathan and Ethan. Ethan lived ten days and died of pneumonia while he was still in the hospital. Nathan lived to 17 years and was killed by a drunk driver in 1983
GUEST_Marilyn> I never dreamed we would have to experience loss again. Nathan's death was extremely hard for our family to deal with.
GUEST_Marilyn> I have been a Christian since I was a small child, but this loss really rattled my cage, so to speak.
GUEST_Marilyn> Through the process of grief, I have discovered that Grief is the process of facing the death of a dream.
GUEST_Marilyn> While it may be that your death of a dream was different than mine, I would be interested to know the grief experiences you have had.
GUEST_Marilyn> Will you share with me, please?
Mary_LouC> Losing a brother as a small child, losing my health and the ability to work, losing my mother.
lindacat67> I've grieved over so many loses in the past 5 years.
Mary_LouC> Losing the dreams associated with my work, things I wanted to accomplish but doubt I can now.
[HOST_Carolann] I think for me, having a serious debilitating illness is a grief in that you lose your life as you know it and want it
Kevin_OH> For me, I've been blessed in that none of my immediate family has died. My parents are still alive, 3 siblings and their kids, and my wife and 5 kids.
Alice> I lost a baby during birth - and lost my first husband suddenly at age 44. Also have lost my mother, father, and three brothers.
Christine> Loss of my father , loss of a friend to suicide
lindacat67> I lost my dream of being a CPA, my father, my kidney etc etc
Ron> Having my mother not know me due to Alz.
lisa705> i have had my sisters both miscarry babies twice
Louise> Long, painful death of parents - all four. And my health and friends.
Kevin_OH> I've lost many dreams, or I guess, in the process of losing them due to my health. I'm afraid to let go of them.
GUEST_Marilyn> You see, each of us have had a dream die, haven't we?
[HOST_Carolann] yes
lindacat67> yes
Christine> loss of functioning as I have in the past and want to again
Shirley> I've been through many kinds of grief -- loss of loved ones, family, loss of my mother as my best friend through Alzheimer's and now loss of my dreams through chronic illness...
GUEST_Marilyn> May I share with you the process I have discovered we need to go through to be able to deal and grieve properly over our loses/
GUEST_Marilyn> First is the Letting Go step
GUEST_Marilyn> We need to let go of Old Dream, Obstacles, and Obsessions.
Alice> Loss of many activities and friends due to FMS, MCS/ degenerative arthritis and bone and joint disease. This causes me to lose getting to go and do as i used to. Had to give up having company in for dinner, etc. And, my poor husband.....how he has to make up for the things i can't do anymore.
GUEST_Marilyn> My old dreams included raising four sons, enjoying their weddings, and enjoying their children.
GUEST_Marilyn> What do you see as Obstacles to letting go?
[HOST_Carolann] if we have a dream for a long time, it becomes a part of us, so it's like losing a part of me
Kevin_OH> being unwilling or unable to face the situation
Christine> Viewing "letting go" as "giving up"
lindacat67> well said Carolann
[HOST_Carolann] yes
lindacat67> That maybe there won't be anything else to dream for
Mary_LouC> Not wanting to face the emptiness of not having dreams of any kind any more.
GUEST_Marilyn> Ah, yes, Christine. And Carolann, it does become part of us, doesn't it? Perhaps we thing it is our right.
Molly> I agree with Christine--it's like giving up and we aren't supposed to be "quitters"
Shirley> Yes, "letting go", "giving up" and learning that acceptance of current circumstances does not necessarily mean any of these.
Christine> I think the struggle -- Mary Lou -- is finding new dreams -- and I don't know what those are for me
[HOST_Carolann] same here Christine
GUEST_Marilyn> All of those thoughts are correct. Also anger, guilt, etc. can be obstacles, can't they?
[HOST_Carolann] yes
lindacat67> yes
Mary_LouC> You're right, Christine. I"m finding that Jesus is showing me how to dream and what to dream about according to his will.
Christine> absolutely
Mary_LouC> They're things I never would have thought about before illness.
GUEST_Marilyn> I found that letting go of the old dreams was learning to face what is today rather than what might have been.
Christine> Things I feel those around me don't want to face with me -- it's hard for them because they don't know what to say or how to help
Tammi_> Often God's plan for our lives are different from our plans.
Christine> Amen Tammi
Mary_LouC> Amen, Tammi!
GUEST_Marilyn> I have observed that when we go through a loss, we often become Obesssed with trying to prevent this trauma for others. Example: Trying to prevent drinking and driving, single handedly.
Kevin_OH> it's hard to think like God
[HOST_Carolann] yes, you see that alot - people start to be advocates for a cure etc
Alice> God gives us the "desires of our hearts" - but they are HIS desires for us - not our desires for us -- and his ways are always best in the long run
Christine> Doesn't that keep one's focus "on" the loss and not on the present ??
GUEST_Marilyn> Trying to help those who are dying of cancer; those experiencing divorce, debilitating health, etc. While all of these are good causes, we can become obsessed, can't we?
[HOST_Carolann] it seems some people are driven by it
GUEST_Marilyn> We can get so caught up in the "cause" that we neglect everything else in our lives, such as our family, our other responsibilities.
GUEST_Marilyn> Let me give you my personal example.
GUEST_Marilyn> When our son was killed by a drunk driver, I became a speaker for MADD. Even though I was working full time, had a husband and a home to care for, in the first six months, I spoke 45 times for MADD. I think that could be considered an obsession. ;-)
[HOST_Carolann] wow, that's alot!
Molly> but if that's part of your grief process, isn't that acceptable?
Christine> Good point Molly
[HOST_Carolann] yes, a good question Molly
GUEST_Marilyn> I had to get my life back in balance so that while I spoke for MADD, I wasn't losing the rest of my life by neglect.
[HOST_Carolann] it's all about balance then, not one or the other
GUEST_Marilyn> I think it can be acceptable, Molly, but we need to be careful we don't sacrifice what God has gifted us with, our family, etc.
Christine> So any grief process that creates an imbalance can become an obsession
Christine> ?
Shirley> When I first became ill, I got involved in a support group and practically lived every moment of my day focused on my illness and helping others...the helping others part wasn't bad it was just that I so focused on that and nothing else...it was very hard on my husband and eventually I even lost friends because I was so singly focused on that one thing.
Christine> Good example Shirley
GUEST_Marilyn> Yes, I think it can become an obsession, Christine, if we are forfeiting the rest of our lives that God has given us.
Louise> I find my losses are instilling terrible fears of the future - watching so many people suffer horribly before dying has given me a fear of hospitals, death, who will care for me if something happens to my husband etc. Just fear of future. Anyone? GUEST_Marilyn> Good point, Shirley. I think that's it.
Shirley> Louise, I can really relate to that, especially since I am so dependent on my husband
lindacat67> I went through a period of tremendous fear Louise when I had to keep getting more and more medical test done.
GUEST_Marilyn> I would call your fears obstacles to healing, Louise.
lindacat67> I have to give all those fears to God daily
GUEST_Marilyn> The next point on my outline is Launching Out.
Christine> Louise -- one of my Dr's suggested I work on a "plan" for the future so I can feel some of those fears have options and I can make choices --- something a spouse can be part of too.
Tammi_> God wants us to be completely dependent on Him, not others.
GUEST_Marilyn> We launching out to God, to Ourselves, and then to Other.
GUEST_Marilyn> I'm sorry my typing is so bad. Please be patient with me.
GUEST_Marilyn> We launch out to God by immersing ourselves in His Word.
GUEST_Marilyn> I have read through the Bible every year for 40 years.
Tammi_> Neat! I am currently reading through the Bible again.
GUEST_Marilyn> That only means that I am full of truth, unfortunately not memorized, but very familiar with the truth.
GUEST_Marilyn> When our 17 year old died, I must admit I had to learn to like God all over again.
Tammi_> I bet.
Mary_LouC> I can understand that, Marilyn.
GUEST_Marilyn> I knew enough about God to know He would like me anyway.
Molly> amen, Marilyn :)
GUEST_Marilyn> While I don't memorize very well, I know His Word was stashed away in me and He would bring it to mind when I needed it.
GUEST_Marilyn> I then launched out to myself by getting to know who I was as a person. Before Nathan died, I was known as Nathan's mom. Now all of a sudden I had to get to know me again.
GUEST_Marilyn> I took a personality test and a spiritual gifts test. I always thought I had the gift of Mercy, but God showed me that was my mother's gift and she had taught me well.
GUEST_Marilyn> I found I had the gift of encouragement and the gift of exhortation. So then I felt more comfortable sharing with and comforting others.
GUEST_Marilyn> Which takes us to the next point, Launching out to Others. I am comfortable in this position now. I realize that God comforted me so that I could comfort others with the comfort I received.
Shirley> It's really hard when chronic illness robs you of some of your personal gifts...mine was administration, organization, etc. and the cognitive and short term memory problems have really been a challenge with all that...I am still struggling to find out how to use those gifts but in a limited way...
Alice> That's the HopeKeepers scripture
[HOST_Carolann] yes Shirley, I agree, but God always has a gift or gifts you can use just as you are
GUEST_Marilyn> But Shirley, have you considered that God may be giving you NEW gifts now?
[HOST_Carolann] yes He can do that can't He!
Shirley> That's what I am struggling with...even accepting a new gift can be hard, but I pray every day that He will direct me...
Alice> He has in my life several times
Karen-Miami> shirley, what limited ways have you been able to use your gifts?
GUEST_Marilyn> I believe gifts are for a season. I see now that God has given me the ability to write. I don't think I had that ability before I lost the children.
GUEST_Marilyn> I urge you all to be open to the new ways God may be leading you. Moving into a new arena can be scary, but God is always there ahead of us.
[HOST_Carolann] amen
Shirley> Not to expect the same level of organization, etc. that I have had in the past...a real challenge is reading for any lengths of time, so I have learned to turn to short articles, etc.
Shirley> RestMinistries materials have helped me so much there
GUEST_Marilyn> The last point is Living Again with Peace, Purpose, and Perspective.
[HOST_Carolann] that's what we all want I'm sure!
GUEST_Marilyn> Do any of you have questions for me now that I have shared my story with you?
lindacat67> Did you get depressed and lose hope for any period of time?
BevinFL> Yes I do there are 7 or 8 steps I am not sure how many to the grieving process do you know them and we all must go through each
GUEST_Marilyn> Good question, Linda. Yes, I did get very depressed after the death of each child, especially Nathan. I actually locked myself in the bedroom many times, and my husband would slide encouraging notes under the door.
lindacat67> how sweet of him
[HOST_Carolann] how lovely of him!
Shirley> Did you get professional help with the depression?
Karen-Miami> But people do not always go through the stages in the same order or in the same lengths of time/
GUEST_Marilyn> Bevin, there are steps listed by Elizabeth Kubler-Ross. However, I believe those steps were meant for the dying, not necessarily for the living with loss. I think stages implies a beginning and an end. We have emotions and reactions to grief that come, go, and come back again.
Karen-Miami> One friend was so strong for her children that she bottled up her grief and a counselor told her to get alone somewhere and just scream. She did that for weeks and it really helped her.
GUEST_Marilyn> Shirley, I should have gotten professional help, but even 23 years ago, in Christian circles, therapy was frowned upon. No one suggested I should get professional help, so unfortunately, I didn't.
[HOST_Carolann] thank the Lord you got through it OK
Karen-Miami> You mentioned purpose. It was in finding purpose again that my mother goped so much better after her stroke.
BevinFL> Yes I agree each person is different and each loss is also different I have found many people they are not good people if they give into those feelings but they are normal I believe
Shirley> I am so thankful that is changing now....I did get professional and spiritual help and really encourage others to do so, too
lindacat67> I did try to get professional help and all they wanted to do was medicate me which my primary doctor was against.
Karen-Miami> I meant to write coped
GUEST_Marilyn> Karen, you are right. One of the stages is Bargaining. That's a little hard to do in a sudden loss.
Christine> Marilyn -- what resources are you aware of that address the on-going grief of chronic illness -- are there any out there ?? I find grief to be a companion on this journey and that is my discouragement
GUEST_Marilyn> Karen. That friend had a very wise counselor. I wish I could have found a place to scream.
BevinFL> think they are not good People ( sorry for misstatement
GUEST_Marilyn> I agree, Bevin.
Molly> Marilyn, where does one take a personality test or a spiritual gifts test that you mentioned?
Karen-Miami> One friend who has been a caregiver, had a few strokes, struggles with glaucoma, and has had her husband have strokes and heart problems learned to do a new self-assessment and uses it to help others find purpose and direction
Alice> Do any of you believe that "putting on the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness" as it says in the Bible helps.....have you tried it? I did and it does help.
GUEST_Marilyn> Linda, I always tell people they should make sure the counselor has gone through grief and loss him or herself. Otherwise, their answer often seems to be medication.
lindacat67> absolutely Alice
Shirley> lindacat67 it took medication as well to help me...I know it is scary without the right professionals, but sometimes it is necessary is there truly is a chemical imbalance
Mary_LouC> Yes, Alice. If I can force myself to sit down and sing along with praise and worship music, I find that joy will enter me.
[HOST_Carolann] yes Alice, worshiping God takes the focus off our selves and onto God where it belongs
[HOST_Carolann] He will bless that step of faith
GUEST_Marilyn> Christine, all I can suggest is that you check out the web for special groups. I am not aware of any. I am learning to cope with Fibromyalgia. That's an adjustment, too.
lindacat67> Marilyn, it's so sad that sometimes insurance companies dictate the professionals we can see
BevinFL> I had to take lots of tests written and verbal etc for brain injury and in those tests Just as you stated our core beliefs and our faith and all is in there and does come out with many other things
Christine> I have to leave for a Dr's appointment -- Marilyn thank you for sharing your story and everyone else for sharing your stories and selves as well
Alice> Thank you all for agreeing....i was beginning to think i was the only weird one.
lindacat67> I'm glad God has brought me out of that deep depression and that my primary doctor was knowlegable enough to know not to put me on major meds.
[HOST_Carolann] There have been a few questions lost in the shuffle unfortunately... Marilyn, do you know of any source for personality or spiritual gifts tests?
GUEST_Marilyn> Molly: The personality tests are available in many books authored by Tim LaHaye or Florence Littauer. The only spiritual gifts test that I am aware of is written by Dr. Larry Poland. I think he has a website for MasterMedia.
GUEST_Marilyn> Alice. I do believe praising God makes all of the difference in the world
Molly> Thank you so much Marilyn
lisa705> i am taking notes today to help here
[HOST_Carolann] There will be a transcript of today's chat available also
Shirley> Me, too, Lisa
GUEST_Marilyn> Shirley, medication is fine as long as it isn't used simply to cover up the emotional needs.
BevinFL> I think in helping others with grief and also ourselves we need to be good iisteners and also have good listeners for ourselves as well
GUEST_Marilyn> I agree, Linda. I think many of them now at least honor requests for a Christian counselor. Unfortunately that may not be enough.
Shirley> I agree, but I do think as Christians we do have to be careful not to put shame on the fact that sometimes medication is needed...I believe the personal therapy and drawing closer and closer to God during the depression is essential, whether that is through reading scripture, listening to praise music or whatever works at the moment.
Alice> So do I Marilyn. That doesn't mean we won't still think about our losses and we will grieve....but He can and will lift us above it if we just "press on" And, that's hard when we have chronic illnesses. Amen Shirley. Some of us have to take meds and we need not be ashamed.
lindacat67> I have nothing against the meds Shirley, but for me my primary doctor knew my depression was from an onset of even and not chemically induced.
GUEST_Marilyn> Carolann, I think the answer next to your question will answer your question.::cool
[HOST_Carolann] yes, thank you
GUEST_Marilyn> I agree with you Shirley
lindacat67> should be an onset of events not even (sorry)
[HOST_Carolann] yes Shirley, the 2 go hand in hand
BevinFL> Yesterday depression can be chemical or clinical
GUEST_Marilyn> I'm sorry, I just don't type fast enough to get all of your questions answered. If I missed a question, please repeat it. Remember, I'm getting old and slow.::biggrin
[HOST_Carolann] hehehe, aren't we all!
BevinFL> Yes ( I am sorry I have a migrane and can not think
[HOST_Carolann] it's a different format than public speaking too, so we all understand it's slower
Shirley> Lindacat, the wonderful thing is to praise God for bringing us through that valley of depression and using the resources available to us to help us...I thank God He works in so many different ways
lindacat67> Amen Shirley
GUEST_Marilyn> Well, just remember, I picture you all as young and beautiful.
Ron> thanks
Mary_LouC> That's how Jesus sees us, too!
lindacat67> The beauty of the computer huh Marilyn.!!!!
[HOST_Carolann] :)
Mary_LouC> We're beautiful in his sight!
BevinFL> ty
Shirley> Marilyn, I think you are doing a wonderful job and since this is the first time in this chat room I am so happy to be with all of you
GUEST_Marilyn> I found a book by Florence Littauer, Blow Away The Black Clouds to be a great book on Depression.

(Note from HOST, Carolann: Sorry, I neglected to copy the last few entries of the chat session. It was near the end anyways so I didn't miss much. Please check out Marilyn's website at www.marilynheavilin.com for her books she has written on grief and loss.)