2/8/06

HOST_Carolann> I think we will get started. We will likely get some latecomers, but it's good to start on time anyways.
HOST_Carolann> Welcome again everyone! And a special welcome to Larry Wilson who is our guest speaker for today.
HOST_Carolann> He is here to talk to us about When Life Doesn't Turn Out The Way You Expect.
HOST_Carolann> Larry is an ordained minister with 13 years pastoral experience. Among other accomplishments , he has written a book called Why Me? Straight Talk About Suffering.
HOST_Carolann> You can learn more about Larry through his website www.lawrencewilson.com
HOST_Carolann> Welcome Larry, and I will turn our time over to you.
GUEST_Larry> Thanks, Carolann ...
GUEST_Larry> And thank you for having me here today.
GUEST_Larry> I thought I would begin today by telling a brief story ...
GUEST_Larry> And then sharing a couple of things that I have learned ... partly from writing the book that Carolann mentioned ...
GUEST_Larry> And partly "on my own" meaning--through my own experiences.
GUEST_Larry> Does that sound OK to everyone?
HOST_Carolann> sounds great
hagar> nods
Heather> sounds good
allisonbottke> you go guy!
Mary_Lou> Agreed.
GUEST_Larry> Don Hernandez was 14 years old and headed for summer camp. Physical exams for summer camp were a matter of routine. He'd had one each year for the past three, and there was nothing to it - except for the booster shot; nobody likes needles.
Exodus> great!
GUEST_Larry> "What's this about?" he wondered.
GUEST_Larry> Miguel and Inez Hernandez stood next to their son, seated on the examining table. The doctor closed the door and leaned against it. "It's diabetes," he said emphatically. "Your son has juvenile onset diabetes, Type 1. He'll need insulin injections for the rest of his life." Miguel and Inez Hernandez stood next to their son, seated on the examining table.
GUEST_Larry> "And there's more," the doctor said. "His blood sugar level is above 400 right now. Don's not going to summer camp. He's going to the hospital for immediate treatment."
GUEST_Larry> On that day, Don's life changed forever. A lifetime of battling against his own body left him bitterly scarred - he lost first a kidney, then some toes, then a foot, and finally a leg. Not exactly the life he'd had in mind as a healthy, eager 14-year-old boy.
GUEST_Larry> Don is one of the people that we interviewed for our book ...
GUEST_Larry> And I'm sure he's not the first person to discover that life doesn't always turn out the way you expect.
GUEST_Larry> Anybody know what I mean?
HOST_Carolann> oh yes!!
Mary_Lou> For sure!
[Ron] sure do
allisonbottke> absolutely!
GUEST_Larry> I've had a few of those "not what I expected moments" too.
GUEST_Larry> I never envisioned having osteoarthritis at age 15 and having both knees and hips replaced before I was 45. I never dreamed that my first baby girl would be born seriously ill, live for 5 pain-filled months and die before my eyes. It never occurred to me that I'd be involved in a conversation that begins with the words, "I want a divorce."
GUEST_Larry> But we don't get to choose all of our life experiences ...
GUEST_Larry> The real issue for us, I think, is not what happens to us ... but how what we do with it.
allisonbottke> Amen!
GUEST_Larry> How do you respond when life doesn't turn out the way you expect? How do you cope when life hands you something nasty? What are you going to do with the knowledge that life is less than perfect?
GUEST_Larry> I believe that the God who did not spare his own son but willingly gave him up to suffer is the God who knows your pain, your disappointment, your heartache. And he is still the God who is worth loving and serving.
Heather> That's right!
Mary_Lou> Amen!
GUEST_Larry> I feel like I'm in a gospel service, the way you guys are "Amening" me :-)
GUEST_Larry> Feel free to keep it up ...
hagar> smiles
HOST_Carolann> :)
Mary_Lou> Amen! Amen! Amen!
GUEST_Larry> I would like to share three things I've learned about being faithful and ultimately, finding contentment when life doesn't turn out the way you expect. The first is this: Make the decision to trust God.
GUEST_Larry> There are two questions that every thoughtful person will face in life: first, is there a God? Second, is God good? Most people have no trouble with the first question. It's the second one that bothers us.
GUEST_Larry> Do you remember the story of Lazarus?
Heather> sure
HOST_Carolann> yes
allisonbottke> yes ...
GUEST_Larry> Jesus knew that Lazarus was ill, but he waited before going to see him.
allisonbottke> and did he ever catch flack for that!
GUEST_Larry> He waited so long that Lazarus had been dead and buried for four days ... then he went to Bethany.
allisonbottke> why did you wait so long!
GUEST_Larry> Great question!!!
GUEST_Larry> That's just what Martha was asking when she went out to meet him, remember?
allisonbottke> I was trying to be Martha ... bad job at it ..
GUEST_Larry> Here's the line, Allison: She said, "Lord, if you had been here, our brother would not have died."
GUEST_Larry> I think I would have said the same thing ...
GUEST_Larry> Or maybe something even stronger?
GUEST_Larry> I really like what Martha said next, though. She said, "Even now, I know that God will give you whatever you ask."
GUEST_Larry> I think that is the first choice we all have to face when life gets out of control ....
GUEST_Larry> Do we still trust God in spite of what is happening?
allisonbottke> Of course!
GUEST_Larry> To me, this is the first issue: Do you believe that with God, the future is always brighter than the past?
GUEST_Larry> I have a couple of more thoughts to share ...
GUEST_Larry> But maybe we could talk about this one for a minute ...
GUEST_Larry> Some people that I've known have never struggled with the issue of faith-they always trust God, even when their life is a mess. Do you think that's typical?
Tammi> No, definitely not.
Mary_Lou> No, I think that's unusual.
craftingrama> I wish I could be like that but no
Exodus> me, too
hagar> but for some of us it is that or die
joanng63> I believe that the future with God is brighter than the past, but what happens when you don't understand the path God has chosen for you?
Tammi> It's much easier to trust God when things are going well, not when we don't understand why or what is happening.
allisonbottke> "lean not on your own understanding ..."
allisonbottke> I don't understand a lot of what the Lord puts on my plate ...
GUEST_Larry> It sounds like all of us have had those "questioning" times ...
Mary_Lou> Too often we measure God's goodness by whether he's doing what we want or not.
GUEST_Larry> What are some of the things that have helped you get through them?
Mary_Lou> But he's good ALL the time, even when we don't like the way our lives are going.
allisonbottke> but I figure I'm supposed to learn something from it ..
Tammi> Prayer, Scripture reading, meditating on God's promises.
joanng63> God helped me find someone of faith.
GUEST_Larry> you guys are very typical of the people we interviewed for the book ...
GUEST_Larry> They all shared a variety of spiritual "coping mechanisms"
Heather> that's good to know ... sometimes I feel like I'm all alone
WPH_2> I've also found it helpful to have a few key friends I can call on whatever the hour to ask for prayer or a listening ear. ::smile
craftingrama> I have a doubting Thomas problem so sometimes God needs to kick my butt with an obvious show of love
allisonbottke> What about you, Larry? Did you always trust God through your challenges?
Mary_Lou> I look at the cross and at what Christ has done there for me. How can I think he doesn't love me and he isn't good when he gave his life out of love?
GUEST_Larry> Hey ... I thought I was ASKING the questions ;-)
allisonbottke> oh ... sorry. gulp.
GUEST_Larry> I have a weird answer for that one ...
Ron> Begin by praising God for His creation
GUEST_Larry> In one sense, I do doubt--actually, quite a bit ...
GUEST_Larry> But there has never been a point in my life when I have really abandoned--or even come close to abandoning-faith
GUEST_Larry> I guess I just get mad at God more than doubt him.
GUEST_Larry> Ok ... Let's move to another thought
Mary_Lou> When you know there are only two camps in the world, one is God's and one is the devil's, there's really no place else to go no matter how mad we get, eh?
GUEST_Larry> I like that, Mary Lou ... there really is not choice but to believe, is there?
GUEST_Larry> Here's the second thing I've learned about dealing with adversity: You must make the decision to accept help.
GUEST_Larry> That's hard to do when you're used to thinking of yourself as invincible, which most of us are.
GUEST_Larry> I think the reason we are so shocked by pain is we think we're invincible. How could this happen-to me?
GUEST_Larry> One of the most paralysing things that you can do when facing some life trauma is to insulate yourself from others. You ensure that you will never make any more progress than what you yourself are capable of.
allisonbottke> Good point!
GUEST_Larry> How about another story ... remember Naaman?
GUEST_Larry> Naaman was a great general in the Aramean army. He became ill with leprosy-AIDS of the ancient world.
GUEST_Larry> A servant girl told him about the prophet Elisha. He went, but Elisha wouldn't even come out just told him to dip 7 times in the Jordan
GUEST_Larry> Naaman got MAD!!
GUEST_Larry> He was about to go home when his advisors convinced him to try it.
GUEST_Larry> "What do you have to lose?" they argued.
GUEST_Larry> So Naaman went and was healed.
GUEST_Larry> But first, he had to humble himself ...
GUEST_Larry> To find help from an unlikely place.
GUEST_Larry> Ever been there?
rebekah> I have a question: Because pain is so often the teacher that God uses, God's megaphone, as C. S. Lewis put it, are you ever afraid to ask God for wisdom because it will result in more pain?
Heather> amen, Becky
debbie> Yes
Mary_Lou> Oh, yes, Rebekah! I say, Lord I want to learn your lessons, but do they have to hurt so much?!!!
Heather> I've been afraid, but that's a sign of my not trusting him
[HOST_Carolann] Amen Mary Lou
[HOST_Carolann] we naturally shy away from pain and discomfort
GUEST_Larry> How about a show of hands on this one ...
GUEST_Larry> Do you find it difficult to admit that you need help from others?
gracedostrich> yes that's our human nature
[HOST_Carolann] hand up!
Tammi> Yes, definitely.
Heather> depends on the issue
Heather> if it's washing the dishes, then no
debbie> AT times yes
craftingrama> sometimes depends on what its for and how much its going to cost me
Mary_Lou> It's easier to give help.
WPH_2> yes
Ron> learning to accept help
GUEST_Larry> That was a hard lesson for me ...
GUEST_Larry> learning to accept help.
GUEST_Larry> Here's another question ...
GUEST_Larry> Anyone here walk with a cane, walker, etc.?
GUEST_Larry> (I do sometimes)
craftingrama> I use a cane
debbie> Not yet but its coming
Mary_Lou> I limp, but don't use a cane.
GUEST_Larry> I did that for a long time .. still do when possible ... limp along w/o the cane.
GUEST_Larry> I think we do that in other ways too ...
GUEST_Larry> Refuse to ask for or accept the help that we could have.
hagar> I had a long battle with that until... just in December... I accepted help & took a medical leave. Opened the door to healing I never dreamed I needed.
Heather> we don't want to use the cane because we don't want others to think we're weak
[HOST_Carolann] good hagar, I'm glad
GUEST_Larry> That's wonderful ...
Tammi> It goes back to the sin of pride.
GUEST_Larry> Yeah, Tammi ... that one goes pretty deep.
Tammi> Yes, for all of us.
allisonbottke> but you know what the cane is made of before you put your weight on it - you know how strong and sturdy and trustworthy it is. I think we need to trust the people to whom we reach out to during troubling times. many folks have been burned ...
allisonbottke> I think that is why we sometimes keep to ourselves
GUEST_Larry> Good point ...
[HOST_Carolann] it's hard to trust others
Heather> it's important though to find the balance between leaning on others...
Heather> and getting too needy
GUEST_Larry> I think it's hard to accept help sometimes because we know it is a big responsibility ..
allisonbottke> of course!
GUEST_Larry> And not everyone is up for it
GUEST_Larry> I think it's what Allison said .. you have to know that you can trust others first.
GUEST_Larry> On the other hand ... you have to have faith too ..
Tammi> It's also important to lean on God and not on others all the time. Our dependence needs to be on Him.
[HOST_Carolann] I agree Tammi, we need to find that balance
GUEST_Larry> Back to Naaman--He could have maintained his dignity and died of leprosy. He decided to humble himself and be healed. When your world falls apart, you're going to face the same choice.
GUEST_Larry> I've had to ask myself that a couple of times ...
GUEST_Larry> The third thing I've learned about dealing with trauma: You must make the decision to move on.
GUEST_Larry> One of my favorite sayings is this one: "You can never get finished if you never get started." If you're going to make any kind of spiritual recovery, you have to make the decision to move forward. That's harder than it sounds.
GUEST_Larry> There are some natural reactions when life disappoints us. When we interviewed people for our book, it was like listening to a recording-they all said the same things . . .
GUEST_Larry> Anger. Self-pity. Thoughts of revenge. Frustration. Depression.
GUEST_Larry> Do you see the progression? This is a paralyzing trend.
GUEST_Larry> All of these reactions are normal-but they have this in common: They will root you in the past. They will ensure that your life will never become anything different than it is right now.
GUEST_Larry> Here's my last story ….
GUEST_Larry> It was 10:30 a.m. on a Wednesday when Regina got the call that haunts every mother's nightmares. She was at her desk at work when her husband called to say "Something's wrong with the baby. Meet me at the hospital."
GUEST_Larry> Her three month old son, Bradley, was dead-a victim of the silent killer, Sudden Infant Death Syndrome.
GUEST_Larry> Dick and Regina were devastated by the loss of their first child. Every Sunday for six months, they drove to the cemetery after church. They looked at the grave. They tended the flowers. They made sure the grass was trimmed. That's what parents do-they take care of their children.
GUEST_Larry> At another level, the cemetery visits were a symbol of their growing attachment to the past. "I'll never forget the first Sunday that we didn't go," Regina recalls. "I had become pregnant again, and I was very tired. It was a rainy day, so we decided to go straight home after church. I felt guilty all afternoon."
GUEST_Larry> Without realizing it, Regina was becoming trapped in her devotion to Bradley. Her focus on the past was preventing her from living in the present and looking to the future.
GUEST_Larry> As we so often do, Regina had looked for a physical remedy to her spiritual need. Believing that having another child would ease the pain of losing Bradley, she and Dick determined to have another child as soon as possible. Six months after Bradley's death, she was three months pregnant, but no less miserable. Unable to look forward to a new life, she could only grieve for the one that was lost.
hagar> understands & relates deeply
[HOST_Carolann] how sad
GUEST_Larry> There is a point of healing for loss. And that is hope. Regina reached that point of healing in an unusual place, a bookstore. (As a writer, I like this part :-)
GUEST_Larry> Dick and Regina had already picked out names for the new baby. If it was a girl, they would name it Amanda. Still curious about the name, Regina picked up a baby name book while browsing a bookstore. She looked up the name and read the meaning. There, hemmed in by the crowded shelves, away from the uncomfortable looks of her friends, God spoke Regina's name.
GUEST_Larry> It wasn't called aloud, but she heard it just the same. It was as if He had passed a note to her across the table in the school library and whispered, Here, Regina. Read this. The words on the page read, "Amanda: Worthy of love." What Regina heard was the voice of God saying, Regina, Bradley is with me. He's fine. Don't worry about him. The child I have given you is worthy of your love. She needs your attention now.
Mary_Lou> That's beautiful!
GUEST_Larry> Amanda is now a healthy, beautiful, vibrant 18-year-old. A senior at a high school in the Indianapolis area, she's headed for a Christian college next fall. She's living proof that the future is always brighter.
GUEST_Larry> But to take hold of it, you've got to let go of the past.
debbie> so true
Heather> that's a strong, but tough message
GUEST_Larry> Here's another question, team ... what does the past--esp. negative things--have such power over us? Or why do we let it?
WPH_2> Too often, though, the past is the crutch that we're tempted to use.
[HOST_Carolann] for one, it's all we know - we don't know the future maybe
Mary_Lou> Regrets about things we did or didn't do.
Mary_Lou> Happier times we long for.
debbie> life was worth something then
Heather> we haven't forgiven or accepted forgiveness
craftingrama> the past was when we had a hope for a brighter future
WPH_2> the past can be an excuse for not living up to our potential
hagar> fear of consequences of choices, fear of facing pain, fear of loss, fear of having joy again only to be disappointed, because to leave the past means walking away from relationships & other idols in our lives we cherish...
GUEST_Larry> Have you guys faced this dilemma? Letting go of old things to take something new?
allisonbottke> the only power my past gives me today is the power to proclaim what Jesus can do when we turn toward Him!
GUEST_Larry> If so ... how did you find that "God moment" where you were able to move on?
Tammi> Sometimes.
[HOST_Carolann] yes, it's scary, like Hagar says - alot of fear in the unknown
Pamela> I have
hagar> ignorance of the word of god & fear of intimacy with Him... what He will ask of us.
hagar> in the process now
debbie> Yes God has blessed me greatly once moved on
[HOST_Carolann] God's Word speaking to my heart gave me courage - through much prayer
Pamela> God gave me a scripture recently that helped me do that very thing
Tammi> Like you said, it's making a conscious decision not to dwell on the past and move forward with our lives.
Tammi> I like Jeremiah 29:11.
Heather> I think we do need to seriously mourn over the wounds of our past, but then to give those wounds to God
WPH_2> For me, it took counselling as well as prayer and hard work to move from the past to potential.
GUEST_Larry> Here's another question ...
debbie> I have learnt how important prayer is in ones life to move forward
Heather> yes, WPH2, I agree
GUEST_Larry> Respond only if you feel like it ...
GUEST_Larry> Most of the people I've talked to have mentioned a "turning point"
GUEST_Larry> A definite moment of decision when the left the past and moved to the future.
GUEST_Larry> Can anyone identify with that "moment"?
[HOST_Carolann] yes, at least twice in my life
hagar> For me it was allowing God to reveal parts of my past I had repressed so far they were locked away & I had no idea at all of the level of abuse I had suffered
Pamela> It is Isaiah 43:18 Do not call to mind the former things or ponder things of the past. Behold I am doing a new thing, now it will spring forth: will you not be aware of it?
allisonbottke> Can I ever!
Pamela> That has been true for me also Hagar
GUEST_Larry> I love that verse, Pamela ...
hagar> Meeting God "face to face" in the sense of encountering Him in life changing moment. When God touches us & denial of his power is impossible.
hagar> had one last night
debbie> Amen
Pamela> That was my moment Larry.. just recently
WPH_2> For me, some of the turning points had to do with natural transition times in life: from high school to college was one time.
GUEST_Larry> Of the three things I've mentioned (Trust God, Accept Help, Move On), which one has been hardest for you-or those around you?
Heather> for me it was when I accepted that God is good ... to go back to the beginning of this conversation
Heather> it was very profound to accept that truth
Tammi> Trust God and Accept Help.
[HOST_Carolann] trust God!
Mary_Lou> Accept help was hardest for me.
allisonbottke> 2 Corinthians 5;17 - "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come." I heard that from a Pastor when I found myself in a church service for the first time in 35 years.
debbie> Accepting help is the hard one for me , as I was the one doing everything
Pamela> Accepting help
Heather> trust God, accept help, move on ... all three :)
allisonbottke> amen Heather!
GUEST_Larry> It's hard to realize we're not in control, isn't it debbie?
allisonbottke> you sure edited that down to a very good list!
allisonbottke> TAM = TRUST, ACCEPT ... AND MOVE ON!
GUEST_Larry> Let's have you guys start offering the advice ...
GUEST_Larry> If someone were to ask you ...
craftingrama> I think my biggest problem is that a lot of the times I felt that my various diseases were punishment for my past and since they are all invisible to the world it is like a private punishment that I can't get help with because no one believes in the pain I'm in
GUEST_Larry> "What's the first thing I should do now" after experiencing some trauma ...
GUEST_Larry> What would you tell him or her?
Tammi> Take some time to recover from it, then pray.
Mary_Lou> Stick with God, read the Bible, attend church, etc. Don't abandon God because of anger or hurt or anything.
[HOST_Carolann] yes allow yourself time to grieve your loss
debbie> I was thinking the same thing
Exodus> . . . tell me about it
rebekah> Be kind to yourself.
Mary_Lou> The devil would love to use our suffering to separate us from God.
GUEST_Larry> Exactly.
[HOST_Carolann] so true Mary Lou
Mary_Lou> Concentrate on your relationship with God even if it's stormy and you hate him for what has happened in your life.
Mary_Lou> Don't give up on God!
GUEST_Larry> You guys are pretty good ...
Mary_Lou> To me, that's the most important thing. Work it through with God no matter how long or how hard it takes.
GUEST_Larry> You should write a book!!
Heather> so should you :)
[HOST_Carolann] hehehe, we could all be co authors with you!! (just kidding)
GUEST_Larry> I don't know if we can apply a formula to this ...
rebekah> don't look for simple answers; there aren't any.
GUEST_Larry> But on the issue of "time"
GUEST_Larry> How much time??
hagar> I would sit with that person first. Hold their hand. Be still. & listen to them & to the Holy spirit
Mary_Lou> As much time as it takes!
Mary_Lou> And that may be a lifetime!
WPH_2> Is it too simple to say "as long as it takes"?
[HOST_Carolann] I was wondering that too WPH 2
Pamela> God's time
[HOST_Carolann] but how do we know it's time to move on now
Pamela> His timing is perfect
debbie> He is patient
hagar> God determines the time & the way. We must relinquish our experiences, our ideas & our comfort zone & trust Him utterly
Mary_Lou> I think of what the Bible tells us, that God has begun a good work in us and will see it through to its completion.
Pamela> I believe when He says it's time you will know
Tammi> After a reasonable length of time, I would say it's time to move on.
Pamela> Amen
GUEST_Larry> To me, that's the point Pamela ... when God lets us know.
Pamela> what is reasonable to one may not be for another
Mary_Lou> It will differ from person to person because we're all different and our relationships with God are at different points.
Exodus> Personally, I appreciate it when others tell me their own experiences versus giving me advice--I can tell you've really 'been there', Larry!
[HOST_Carolann] that means we need to be in tune with Him so we will know His guidance
hagar> We need to learn first to do this with ourselves. God first & then learn the second greatest command.. as we love ourselves. Comfort with the comfort we ourselves have received
Pamela> absolutely Carolann
[HOST_Carolann] amen hagar
WPH_2> I'm not sure it's "once then done." I think sometimes we cycle over issues, pains, memories. Then, it's important to once again give them to the Lord.
Mary_Lou> There's a danger in looking at others and saying, "Well, it isn't so hard for them! Why is it so hard for me?"
[HOST_Carolann] I agree WPH2
Mary_Lou> So I would also tell a person NOT to compare himself with others and their walks with the Lord.
GUEST_Larry> Absolutely ... I don't' think those comparisons are ever valid.
Mary_Lou> They're all different.
Pamela> that is very true WPH_2
Exodus> There's an older version of the scriptures that actually says it's "stupid" to compare ourselves w/others
Pamela> it's like peeling layers off an onion sometimes
GUEST_Larry> Well ... if the Bible says it ...
GUEST_Larry> :-)
Exodus> It's the "good news version"
GUEST_Larry> Carolann ... thank you for the invitation to be here.
[HOST_Carolann] we are coming up to the end of our hour, thank you SO much Larry
Tammi> Thank you, Larry, for your wise words.
GUEST_Larry> You are most welcome.
Heather> thanks, Larry!
[HOST_Carolann] it's been excellent, and thank you all for coming and sharing too
Exodus> Very validating, appreciate it!
debbie> thank you
GUEST_Larry> I'd love to hear from you guys. Please feel free to contact me through my web site www.lawrencewilson.com.
allisonbottke> Thanks Larry!
WPH_2> Thanks, Larry
Pamela> God bless you Larry
gracedostrich> have u written a book?
GUEST_Larry> Thanks for sharing, everyone ... Have a great day!
allisonbottke> God bless Larry AND heather as they work together to spread the Good News! What a team.
Mary_Lou> Thanks very much. You have given us valuable information.